“Well, but if there comes along one that is taught by a true blue trader and is cheap (or free), I still don’t mind attending to hear how he trades, his thoughts during trading, how he approaches the market and other trading stories Other than that, just talking to a trader may be a better way of learning.”

I think by that statement you are referring to YCK and LED (SGX professional)? But they are not cheap nor free…

I’ve attended LED’s course 3 months back, and although I’ve yet to master the way he trades and looks at the market, the 1 thing that I did gain from him is that it definitely takes more than just the 3Ms to trade successfully. Having a good feel with the charts, strategies, indicators etc that suit to individual’s character and temperament, and having a good trading mentor to sit along side guiding will definitely reduce/shorten the pain of learning curve.

Unfortunately, YCK and LED are the few exceptions who are really willing to share their experiences despite their limited time available. And even then, they can’t simply be hand holding their students indefinitely. Most professional traders who are truly successful and have made their money would rather have some privacy and freedom to live their own lives away from the piranhas world when they are not trading.

Agree with your post, Chris. In fact, this is happening in other types of courses as well. Most trainers sell the comfort and their life style to get the buy-in of the crowd emotionally but at the blind side, we tend to miss out the hard work that the trainers need to put in the first place.

Attending courses is one thing, keep learning is another. Let’s continue to unlearn and relearn to stay relevant =)

“Everyone’s psychology makeup and environment is different”

very true, but the mess psychology is very similar, they react almost the same way in each enviroment.

all you have to do is to fade it.

“Trading timeframe/execution must match your lifestyle and must not be stressful…”

fine, if you are working full time, go for investment.

so how?

i got no direct answer.

becos it’s a process that’s take time.

you have to modify and make changes to both your beliefs and trading system constantly so as to find the “correct” match.

yes, make changes to your beliefs system as well, to most, it is a impossible task!

if you have the courage to make changes, your trading psychology will go into reverse.

you will feel utra-uncomfortable, fall short of going into madness.

the faster you can do it, the better you will become as a trader.

“Most courses gravitate towards focusing on strategies because it appeals more to the masses. ….”

so next time if you see messes, crowd, queue, go the other way.

“I still don’t mind attending to hear how he trades, his thoughts…”

no good trader will teach you how to trade his successful way, unless he is up to something else.

even he is proven to be good, you got to ask why is he teaching you!

i certainly will not teach you how i trade. i will be shooting my own foot!

but i can certainly point to you the direction that you intent to go.

“We form trading groups….”

when i first step into trading futures, my “supervisor” group 4 of us together and sometime we trade on consenses (common) strategy, sometime on our own.

i loss more than $25,000
my trading buddy loss more than $300,000!! that was his retirement money.
the other two just disappeared.
my supervisor resigned.

so much for trading in a group!

today i have:

4 destop (one for back-up) in my trading room (my home)

two laptop

one netbook and a moble (for out-door)

practically, you can trade anywhere on this planet.

oh and my lcd tv for 24 hour cnbc coverage.

wow coconut… rebutting point by point eh…

i agree with all the points including jmot’s. i believe forex trading is a journey by itself and the experiences each trader has is different between one from the other.

you can’t emulate all those trading teachers/gurus/trainers because our trading emotional characteristic is different between each and everyone of us.

how can u explain this… the trainer teaches the same strategy over and over and over again… same signal, entry, exit and stop loss… thus why is it that only a handful will make money while the 95% of students just can’t make it at all?

those who can make it have the same emotional attributes as the teacher/guru/trainers. those who doesn’t well… off the the next seminar they go…

just 2 weeks ago, i know of a trader who go bust speculating in gold.

he got the direction right, but still loss most of his money!

“i believe forex trading is a journey by itself and the experiences each trader has is different between one from the other. ”

yes, the difference comes from within.

but why forex trading/trader?

i think a speculator should seek out all opportunities available out there and not just restricting to forex.

he is a trader from UK whom i happen to know.

we did talk about the gold market before and i feel bad about it.

we all “know” that the market was going higher, but the problem is he took too much risk, couple with the increase in volatility.

it was not that much but it is a lot to him.

this is the danger that most of us as trader will face, when you continue to do well and out of the blue, one market show sign that it “certainly will” go higher and you took the bite.

it certainly happen to me before.

I have to agree. Most of these courses charge thousands of dollars for a few days course that likely only teach the basics like opening an account, how to click buy/sell/stoploss/limit/OCO/etc, some indicators, simple strategies and time’s up. Because it preys on the masses who might not even know how to trade yet with dreams of easy money.

Then support is trading groups with mentors. Something like the blind leading the blind to lose more money together.

I am also serious to learn about trading. But believe these courses are definitely not the way to go. Currently self studying, but a good mentor to hand hold, guide and coach will definitely help to avoid the pitfalls and accelerate learning.

Wonder who will be so generous and sincere to see others succeed like the turtle traders.

My views on the advertised courses:
http://anifaview.blogspot.com/2009/12/newspaper-advertisement-claims.html

jmot, would you like to exchange blog links?

“Greed and fear are simple concepts but difficult to master control over. They need to be overcome for you to carry out proper cut losses and letting profits run. Most successful traders actually suffer more losses than gains, however, each loss is small and each gain is huge. So on the overall there is a net gain, and that is all that matters in trading”

lau, that is axactly right.

if i draw my equity chart for this year,

it will look like the chart for the recent gold run.

and that is all that matters in trading!

i have friends who ask me for advice as to how to solve their financial problem.

the first thing i told them was, sell your car.

in the end, they usually ends up as when they started, still having their financial problems and their car.

they expect things to get better, while doing nothing.

if you do not want to change, nothing will come out better in your life and as in trading.

you might be thinking coconut must be the most talkative trader on this planet.

i might be.

but do you really think i will write all these comments when i’m playing my 18 holes, or shopping or whatever?

of course not.

i do it most of the time when i’m trading. where most of the thought just came out of my mind. i usually cannot control it but i simply spell them out.

in fact, i’ve cut them short to avoid being ban from this place.

now you know why.

“So…no more courses for me..”

jmot, you better live up your words.

even if jim roger (he’s in s’pore) were to give lesson for free, don’t go! got that!

in april or may this year, when he told the world (on cnbc), that he in his life time, do not have a single short in the stock market, not even in the financial stocks,

the market (and i) took that as a bullist sign and shot up.

that massage was so important that he had to jump in and repeated twice, yes twice which is very uncommon.

of course, hardly anyone listen.

i’m just glad that he did it.

not becos i own stock, but becos we are in the verge of a second great depression!

there is a chinese saying, if you want to see further, you have to go one more level up.

so jmot, whats the point of telling you what i did in the air while you can’t take off from the ground? (how i size my position)

you got to learn how to take off first, and you know what?

if you are able to take flight, the sky will be open up for you, you will see what is in front of you and do what you need to do.

by than you will need no advise from nobody.

got that!

i had spend one whole year (twelve months or 365 days) just to tell you this massage.

did you get it?

if you can, go back to where i started and re-read my comments again.

who cares!

Take it easy Coconut. You have decades of trading experience. Even you have to go through hundred of thousands of losses to get it right. I learnt from the right mentors that’s why I progress fast. My mentor said it out flat. FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF. I am just trying to help you realise things.

experience can be a good thing and a bad thing.

i had no one to guide me, and i learned the hard way.

and i can imagine that i’ll strangle (kill) my student on the first day of trading. (by not following my instructions)

haha, just imagine.

i’ll spend the afternoon on the golf course. hope that it’s not going to rain.

like traders, most golfers spend a lot of money on golf lesson (they are not cheap, $50/60 for half an hour)

thinking that they will one day play like a professional. they will never make it! (so am i, i’m a 10 handicaper but never got a single lesson, just getting free advice from the pro)

they also spend a lot on equipments, changing their clubs so often, thinking that it will improve on their game, and of course not!

they improve only through experience. but will never reach the the basic standard of golf, which is a zero handicap.

all of the late comer in golf were a loser in golf, myself included.

and michael, you have the confident it takes to be a good trader, and there are much things to learn in front of you.

may be you should take up golf as well, if you are not too old like me. (my guess is you are 25 - 30, too old to become a pro though)

i’m sure that it is a game that you will enjoy, if you like trading as well.

off i go….

oh, the concept is (not greed and fear),

cut your losses short (trade small)

let your profit runs.

after 10 years of trading without a loss, i want to deem myself as successful trader in performance wise, but i actually was successful right at the beginning. i have the confident in myself.

i can hardly believe that i didn’t made any trade today!

the market is indeed falling asleep.

I belief human always learn from their mistakes thats y we as human keep improving, but as we grow older we are fearing to make any mistakes maybe because when we were young and when we make mistakes we would be scold by our teacher,parents,elders…
Just think how to we learn to ride a bicycle? how to we learn to walk?
we have been falling multiple times before we learn to do it the right way (basic)..after that we will be doing stunts with the bike..running,jumping (pro)

When it comes to trading its the same, but we now fear to make mistakes thats why many are finding the “holy grail”.
We of coz not neccessary haf to make huge losses before we can be successful..there are so many successful traders telling people to cut your losses and let your profits run, never use more than 2-5% of your account per trade…but do the majority do it? Maybe not, thats y many fail…but some will learn it and do it the right way (basic)…

I have met a few successful traders and all of them haf different kind of trading methods, but when they started to be consistent profitable all of them belief in letting profit run and never lose more than 2% per trade (basic) after that they will improve to a higher level in managing their trades using their journal as a guide.

If Jmot, u are afraid u cant control your emotions during trading i recommend you to read “Unlimited Power” . I have improve my trading greatly and speedy after i use the techniques in the book to control my emotions anytime i want.

Just my 2cents worth

“there are so many successful traders telling people to cut your losses and let your profits run, never use more than 2-5% of your account per trade…but do the majority do it? Maybe not”

not may be not, definately not! otherwise the majority will win in the long run.

haha, your spelling is as bad as mine.

for me,

i’ll buy that thing i want no matter what the price is, so long as i can affort it.

but i will not buy that thing i do not want (need) even if it’s free.

however, my wife don’t believe this nonsense.

ends up she buy things, i throw things. (trading)

just to make it clearer,

these successful traders, already successful even before their huge losses.

all they need to do is to avoid making the same mistake again.

and i can assure you it is not easy.

One will be lucky if a successful trading mentor is willing to teach you. Most are either psychotic like coconut and will strangle you before you become successful trading, Or demand absolute attention.

what michael says is not far off.

and jmot, you have to be careful becos i don’t know you well, none of my friend can accept what i’ve told them. (trading and investing)

don’t force it if you don’t understand.

haha my english is super poor! not only spelling! i am a typical hokkien speaking guy and i study till ITE..many of my friends dont even believe that i can trade..but i dont care!
I only know i love trading!

“many of my friends dont even believe that i can trade..but i dont care!”

ya, who cares!

trading is not about education level! “street smart” and IQ and EQ are important.

go and get “them” (the market) man.

a cotton (competance) trader i’d mention is in fact a “ah bang” or “gangster”.

i don’t know him well, but he certainly is a good trader.

“I have met a few successful traders and all of them haf different kind of trading methods, but when they started to be consistent profitable all of them belief in letting profit run and never lose more than 2% per trade…”

you are so so right on. fucking right on that!

“I only know i love trading!”

i like that!

i love trading too!, can’t live without it!

my favorite song:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/56773604fb2e87d4/

not too old for you?

the title : 何处是归程 sung by 洪鐘

recently fall in love with a japanese

haha its old for me..but i like the rythm

Merry Christmas, Coconut, Jmot and nothing better to do readers of Jmot Blog…

Haha, here’s the nothing better to do blogger too
Happy New Year to all my blog readers!

“Other than that, just talking to a trader may be a better way of learning.”

Have a look at this blog - and spend a bit of time going through his thinking, his results and his ideas. You might find him interesting. I found him interesting some time ago, but now, I just find him plain profitable! Enjoy…

http://allallan.blogspot.com/

i’ll try to give an honest answer as i can.

if you are a raw beginner, you have to look at trading as gambling. (the very experience trader will able to differential between trading with an edge vs gambling, it is a fine line in between)

so treat it as though you are walking into the casino, how much will you willing to lose? thats you capital requirement.

whether you wait until 35k or 350k it does not matter. you have to lose to learn what is trading all about. all experience traders lost money before, some lost big time like me.

trading is not what many people think it is, a place to make big bucks. no, it is a profession which will take a long time to master (at least 3-5 years full time)

lastly, don’t risk what you can’t affort to lose, when trading, trade as small as you can, it will gives you longer time to learn.

Yes, fully agree!

May i also add that for beginners, always lose as little money as possible for every trade made. It serves 2 purposes:

a) paying a little money to the market for it to teach you why the trade shouldn’t be taken in the 1st place

b) keeps you in the trading game long enough for you to learn how NOT to lose more money. Account survival is the no.1 and 1st objective in this game.

It is only when you go pass the latter, that you’ll start to realise the potential of making money out of money. Lastly, ROI is simply a percentage of your trading capital. Get your trading plan correctly and consistently executed, and time is the only variable before the 1st million is made.

I understand that I needed 3-5 years. However, what would you recommend given the no. of financial instruments available, equities, commodity, forex, and derivatives. What would be your advice, if I want to concentrate on one or two of it? Can you do much with 3k?

“well, can someone help explain the CFD staff?”

CFD is mainly meant for trading stocks and FX on leverage capital. Most CFD brokers give anything from 2 - 10x leverage for stocks, 10 - 100x leverage for FX . e.g you can buy $30k worth of shares with just $3k. However not all brokers are favourable, it is better to sign with brokers that offer DMA (direct market access) CFD platform for better transparency. This will prevent minimise chances of stops being hunted out.

Frankly with $3k capital, probably the only instrument that allow a beginner to learn trading with little overhead costs while making mistakes is FX. Nowadays, you can even fund a FX account with as little as US$1000 to start trading proper micro contracts. Once again, it is always good to select a ECN FX broker for transparency reasons.

In terms of market instruments difficulty i would rank them from ‘challenging’ to ‘easy’ as follow:

1. Indices/Commodity Futures
2. Spot/Futures FX
3. Equity Options
4. Equities

In terms of ‘risky-ness’, all instrument are equally risky without proper position size and risk management.

Juz my 2 cents.

FAT’s blog is really educational. Gives us a peep into the life of a professional trader. Thanks for recommending, coconut.

And his transaction costs are scary! Mmm, would trading US futures be cheaper? Then again, for his style of trading, I believe he will require lightning speed data…

michael, i hope you are just joking.